Saturday, 22 November 2008

Should We Re-Possess People's Homes?

A friend of mine Emma Harrison (she's the social entrepreneur who runs A4e which manages a lot of the government training schemes) was explaining to me recently about understanding the 'lifetime value' of every member of society.

All the time you are in work or enterprise or producing in some way you are adding value to an economy, and every time you are in education, training, hospital, prison, on benefits, drawing pension and so on you are a cost.

Therefore your lifetime value is all the value you bring over the years minus all the cost of supporting you along the way.

It follows that ensuring people are healthy, happy, secure, well-trained and employable is the best way of creating long term value and prosperity.

So WHY OH WHY are we allowing all these state owned banks to re-possess people's homes? (Not to mention HMRCE being the main initiator of so many bankruptcies...)

When someone loses their home they are an immediate and long term cost to society.

The likelihood is that they will go on benefits, need council housing, their security confidence and happiness are immediately destroyed and the stress is the most likely cause of long term illness. It takes a long time to recover from that kind of meltdown.

It is simply not joined up thinking to allow these re-possessions to happen.

The Government should be taking immediate action to prevent banks making people homeless so easily. And if the court does order a re-possession there should be an obligation for alternative accommodation to be sourced (this could be council housing, but a better option would be to provide a guaranteed tracker rate re-finance over a cheaper property to replace the old, more expensive mortgage).

Yes this may cost. But compared to the long term cost of making tens of thousands homeless and/or bankrupt along with the associated social meltdown it is surely worth it?

51 comments:

TheDLOG said...

First of all, why oh why don't the banks pass on the the interest rate cut, that would help many people out of a situation.
Secondly why repossess the house and then put those people into council housing, would it not be better to let them stay in the house that they have a mortgage on and the government/banks defer their payments for a period of time.
If things carry on at the rate they are we will end up with more homeless and unemployed that there will be working with a roof over their heads.

And the result of that will be a massive black market in every sector/product, especially drugs and prostitution.

Spoke with another casualty of the credit crunch last night, a lovely lady who told me that she had just been made redundant after working all her life, (she is in her late 40's) she came to me for some sympathy and advice, she was in tears, it was heart breaking that I was unable to help her.

DLOG

Stephen said...

Yes, it certainly seems a very bad move Rachel, but in the end there will be plenty of spoils for the middle classes to pick over. Plenty of opportunities for (the so called entrepreneurs) and all that.

Human misery in the lower order is a welcome strategy for many and ensures the middle classes do not get out of line.

Don't you see what is happening here?

The silly arses at the top screwed things up - and now the lower
classes are going to pay for it.

Yea, really smart.

But not so secret.

Anonymous said...

The problem is distiguishing between the genuine and the reckless. The system already makes it quite hard to evict and there are already measures in place to protect the genuine and try and keep them in their homes. As you rightly point out eviction is an inefficient process for all (including the lender ironically).

Something to remember here is that the banks (which are not state owned just yet) have securitised many of these assets. As such, they don't own them anymore but are bound by a management contract to manage them within certain criteria. They are contract bound usually to manage arrears within certain limits.

I agree that there needs to be more forbearance but it is important not to create moral hazard otherwise we all suffer.

C

TheDLOG said...

C "The problem is distiguishing between the genuine and the reckless".

Yes, but if all banks where bound to follow the 'Bank of England' base rate it would not matter if there genuine and reckless borrowers as much, because everybody would be benefiting from the 'correct' rate as such.
The banks claim that they use a system called 'inter bank lending' which they say the rate that charge has no comparison to the Bank of England base rate, so really they are, the banks, all in it together to screw as many as they can by taking their properties now, and, when things supposedly improve sell them on at a massive profit, or of course they could repossess and sell them to the super rich now at a low price, that way the banks get the money they lent, and yes, yet again the super rich inherit, at massively knock down prices, a massive property portfolio to later sell on or rent out at ridiculous rents.
See at the end of the day all this corrupted Government does is to increase the massive fortunes of the already massively rich leeches out there, and at the detriment of the less fortunate people, who are in the majority. SO really it is legalised crime!

Power to the People, stand up and be counted, revolt against the real mafiosi of the world, yes The Governments, and all who serve them, P. Jones, P Paphitis, D, Gold nad family and the rest of the leeches/vultures present and past.

Phew that was a long one!

DLOG

Stephen said...

When they come for my house, there will be bloodshed. They will be treated as any villain trying to break in would be.

Their monopoly games will not see them banking my house.

At the moment they are bashing away at the outer skin (young folks) and that comes off very easily.

Its when they get deeper in that they will find themselves coming unstuck. All the security in the world will not help them.

GreenGingerCards said...

Just read details recently that some councils are offering to help people pay their mortgage arrears for this reason. If they do lose their home, the state may very well have to pay for accomodation anyway so why not pay the mortgage arrears and avoid the long term housing costs and admin costs involved in re-housing someone who would otherwise become homeless.

TheDLOG said...

Bloody hell Stephen, I hope you are not suggesting that you are that knife edge of your home being repossessed are you? God forbid.

We must all unite and stand up to these thieves of our society, I'll be happy to be at the frontline, any one wants to join me.
And yeah I have been on the brink of having my house repossessed many years ago now, but I was lucky and just managed to get rid of it in time, at a loss mind you, but with the help of one wonderful person I managed to get back on track and thankfully still have my own property, so I sort of know what it is like to have the bastards coming after these people who are on the brink of financial ruin.
But like you Stephen, anyone who tries now to take what I have worked bloody hard for, God help them, because the last time I had my 5 yearly police check, they reckoned I had a big enough arsenal to start a mini war; BEWARE those who tresspass on my life and property!!

DLOG

Stephen said...

Hi Paul, yes, I very much hope they see sense in this respect.

But these people feel they need ownership of as much of our world as they can possibly get.

Their posture is one of squeezing the majority of us out off this planet. I have seen similar patterns where parents clearly don't want their children anymore, so they play emotional games to squeeze them out and do it in a way where the children conveniently trip themselves up - and in the end the police are called to assist.

These bad spirits and dark strategies are clear to me and i will fight them every step of the way.

Stephen said...

That's good DLOG.

I am so glad that there is still a heart beat left amongst us.

Without love and passion we are like robots.

We are dead men and women walking!

Just setting up that gun turret now!

ha!

TheDLOG said...

Yes Stephen absolutely,

"I am so glad that there is still a heart beat left amongst us.

Without love and passion we are like robots."

But we must unite as one, stand and fight for what is rightfully ours, for what we have worked hard to achieve. We hold on to our love and passion so as not to become Robots.

DLOG

Stephen said...

When you have given everything - including your mental integrity - there is nothing else left to give.

But everything to hang on to!

This is what these people will be up against DLOG.

I don't listen to any BS these days. I couldn't care less what base rate. It's all someone elses made up bollocks.

Once we started bailing out the banks - any respect i had for them went out the window. There is nothing else they can say or do to make it better. Except leave me and mind alone.

This kind of irresponsibility has cost me a great deal already. They will take the rest over my dead body.

If anyone needs any help, let me know. There are some thing i will come out of my house for.

Anonymous said...

The paranoia levels on this blog are reaching epic proportions. Rationality appears to have left the building. Good luck guys because whatever happens I fear you are going to need it.

C

Stephen said...

Yes C,

But this paranoia is based in reality.

Millions to be unemployed
Thousands thrown out their homes
Billions being paid to banks with no return to those who are paying them.

How wrong you are!

Your easy words mean nothing to those who are experiencing the anguish and shame of those who have fallen prey to the deceit and incompetence of the few.

Stephen said...

By the way Rachel, could you mention to Emma what i am doing with the politicians regarding the back to work package.

She seems like an ideal person to front this initiative and i am spending a lot of time producing the product.

It would be helpful if it came from you.

Thank you
S.

TheDLOG said...

C, I do not think it is paranoia it is just the facts being brought to light, perhaps you have never been on the receiving end of this type of meltdown and have enough financially to keep you going.
But we must start to think of the less fortunate of our brothers and sisters and try to find a way to help those who need it.
I think that Rachel does a brilliant job by posting these words as she does, although not everyone agrees all the time, but it brings ideas and ways that we may go forth and help others through the communication that is inspired here.
We must never forget those who may and no doubt will suffer through the incompetance of this now government, and do our best to support them.
I am sure things will improve and all our dreams will become reallity, but we must all start thinking positively, and perhaps this will rub off on society, next time you are all out just take the time to greet some one with a cheerful good morning/affternoon, and let people see positive attitude of others, it will make a difference, not financially maybe, but it will give those who you say it to a more positive optimistic outlook, if only for that initial moment, but if that is all it takes to make some ones day, then so be it, and it has not cost you or I a penny.

God Bless All
DLOG

mike b said...

Be warned all of you...

I read this on another forum

"I've come across three instances where the business owner was looking for support from the banks to be told that they'd do the deal with security from the individual. The owners signed up their homes as security and the bank pulled the plug."

Dishonest..is the only word

So whatever you do , dont give them security if they had none before, because it seems they ARE intending to take your house.

TheDLOG said...

Hmm, funny that Mike, we have a loan and the bank held our premises as security, when we wanted to drawn down the balance of the loan they, the bank, informed us that they were not interested in the property anymore but wanted us to take out life insurance instead, and I am only talkingt about 3/4 weeks ago.

DLOG

Rachel Elnaugh said...

Stephen

Do not worry. If it all goes pear shaped and they do drag you and your family from your home kicking and screaming you are always welcome and live with us in Bakewell.

Of course, if we get repossessed before you, we'll be over to yours...

All 7 of us :-)

R

Rachel Elnaugh said...

Sorry, that should have read 'you are always welcome to come and live with us in Bakewell'

R

PS If we did all come together to live in commune (we could call it Hotel Paranoia) just think how powerful that could be. This is of course how terrorist groups begin... Not everyone will be oppressed and that is what is quite dangerous about the current situation. Think French Revolution - lynch mobs just cut off the heads of the bourgeouise!

Anonymous said...

I think forming a commune might be a great idea. That way you can remove yourselves even further from reality. You can test your theories of utopia, exhchanging the odd apple and then come back and enlighten the rest of us when you have pefected your model existence.

C

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheDLOG said...

Just thought of something, we could all hand our keys back to the banks/building societies, then we can squat our own homes, squaters rights and all that. Now if the whole of the population done this I wonder how the Mafia Government would handle that, ha stick that in your pipe and smoke it 'Don' Brown!!

DLOG

Anonymous said...

How is are banks going to distinguish between cant pay and wont pay?
Why would anyone pay at all if no sanctions exist?
Catherine

Anonymous said...

Catherine

You're dead right. That's the moral hazard here; remove the threat of losing your home and you lose the incentive for people to pay. The net result is that lending costs for all would rise and the availability of credit diminish.

As for distinguishing between genuine hardship cases and others, banks do try and make a distinction by looking at the borrowers total financial situation before taking any action.

C

TheDLOG said...

Yeah right C, they look for hardship cases, they give NO sympathy and just come and take your house, thanks a lot Mr BANKS!!

DLOG

Stephen said...

People should be means tested if they fall into problems with their mortgage. How much can they pay?
Not simply pushed out.

In the days when commercial enterprise was not bailed out, people were willing to lose their homes over sickness or unemployment.

That was the game.

Now they are unwilling to accept the same conditions.

Well, i am anyway.

They changed the rules of their capitalist system, not me.

I don't mind playing by a hard nosed money game system - as long as those who pull the strings do.

But they chickened out!

Scaredy cats, couldn't take the fall like the people they are now repossessing.

by the way....thanks to Rachel for the offer....she definitely is a honey.

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

End of the road for me now, just had a phone call, put the last nail the coffin, don't give a shit now, just need to find an exit plan, but wish you all well.


Mr Totally fucked off.
:-( :-( :-(

Anonymous said...

Heh, however bad it might look now the passage of time will dull the pain.

My first job involved mortgage arrears and yes I did end up evicting some people. I used to go along to the evictions because these were people I had got to know over several months. It always amazed me how many ultimately saw the thing as a relief, almost as if having it hanging over them stopped them from moving on. I'm not denying its a painful experience but life does go on.

C

Anonymous said...

Um, in case you are wondering no my home is not about to be repossessed, the problem is far deeper than that, your home car and the like are just material acquisitions than can always be replaced!

Mr F..... Off!

Rachel Elnaugh said...

Anonymous

Perhaps if you share with us what you are going through someone will be able to help you in some way?

Most people on here are supportive and may be able to give you some support or guidance?

(Apart from C of course! It doesn't surprise me that he was a re-possessor!!!)

R

Anonymous said...

No, I think things have gone to far now, have lost the will to love anymore, and just looking for a way out, suppose I'll just have to bide my time and become a ruthless bastard without any morals until such a time as I can learn to love again.

Mr F..... Off

Anonymous said...

Oh, and by the way do not want to impose on any one anymore, I shall just carry on with my work and take it that what ever will be will be, don't give a shit anymore... if any one wants me (whoever they are) they know where to find me.

Mr F..... Off

Anonymous said...

You don't sound like the ruthless bastard type (I have some experience here). Whatever has caused your grief it will get better with time and as Rachel has said there are loads of people around to help if you look. Mind you, I'd watch out for that DLOG guy as he's previously confessed to a small arsenal of weapons and by his own admission is a bit mad...

Good luck mate and hope it works out for you.

C

Anonymous said...

Alright forget the ruthless bit, I'll just be a bastard.

Mr F..... Off

Anonymous said...

And by the way, no doubt you are to busy anyway, especially you Rachel with your five children and a husband, and besides why would any of you want negativity in your lives, no think I'll go and crawl back to where I came from and get the support of worms in the ground, or maybe become a worm, then I can eat shit and shit it out again day in day out, nothing else to do really, well not with out the support of so called loved ones.

Mr F..... Off

mike b said...

It may come back to me in spades,

But I quite enjoyed asking my bank manager the other day, whether she was credit worthy, and a safe place for me to put my money - and that I was reviewing MY lending criterisa.

I asked whether she would be willing to give me some management accounts, or put up a Personal guarantee....

Tried to avoid sniggering whilst i said it...

I suspect I was one of many!!!

Rachel Elnaugh said...

The problem is, Mr F that your now despair will eventually turn to anger - and it is that collective uprising of anger from people who have been rejected, let down, scorned, re-possessed and variously shat upon from great heights that is going to be quite dangerous for our society.

By the way, Harmonism accepts everyone just as they are, we are quite non-judgemental you know. Unless you are Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling or one of the Dragons of course... :-)

When you are fed up with eating worms and generally feeling sorry for yourself, just come back and let us know. I'm sure someone on here can help.

Positive action is always the best remedy in a life meltdown situation.

R

Rachel Elnaugh said...

PS Yep Mr B, I had a similar conversation with my Private Banker at Coutts: 'I'm not sure my overdraft is safe with you.'

Anonymous said...

It is not a matter of feeling sorry for myself, it is the thing I can not be arsed with the so called loved ones anymore, there is no support from them. Just another cycle of of rejection, that will no doubt pass when I find an uninhabited island somewhere far far away!!

Mr F..... Off

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, and probably time to start tendering resignations also. Who cares if I fuck my life, I don't, because it is already fucked up.

Mr F..... Off

Anonymous said...

Mr F

There are loads of people out there that do care if you go looking. Whatever has happenned try not to let it hold you back. It is ironic that from adversity can come great things.

C

Anonymous said...

"I had a similar conversation with my Private Banker at Coutts"

Woman of the people indeed.

C

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Give, give, give, work my b....... off, then when I want a bit support it is not there, thought I was starting to make a real go of things, then rejection after rejection, how the hell would you feel if it was your supposedly nearest and dearest?

Mr F

Rachel Elnaugh said...

F, I would replace my 'nearest and dearest' with people who truly loved and respected me. You deserve better.

C, there was a time when there a great deal of kudos attached to having a Coutts bank account. That ended the day RBS took over.

R

Stephen said...

Mr F,

Look on change as a blessing.

I had a total breakdown because there was too much on my shoulders and not enough support from the people around me.

There comes a time when you realise that all is fluid around you and then you begin to fall, fall, fall.

And a man who has spent many years in warrior mode suddenly finds themselves sleeping on the floor in the middle of the day. Seemingly unable to be motivated even to get a shave.

Anyway, my friend! What happens is those people who aren't any good for you either leave or shape up. You find clarity in your life at that time.

You need to give yourself a break. Let go.

This may be the time of your life when you can truly get know who you are. Perhaps it is time to slip out of a life that has become dishonest for you and begin to take the long road back to well being again.

In any case. There are people on here who can really help you. When you are ready - just shout. I'm one of us could meet you to talk.

You can kid yourself that you are alone. BUT YOU REALLY ARE NOT!

Anonymous said...

Rachel, "F, I would replace my 'nearest and dearest' with people who truly loved and respected me. You deserve better." I don't know who he/she or they are anymore.

Mr F..... Off

Anne Herbert said...

Mr F, we do expect a lot from our nearest and dearest and when they let us down, the pain is greater. And then a total stranger comes along and lends a hand and you end up making new friends and building closer relationships. I reached a low point last year and received a lot a help and support from Rachel and a number of other people. No matter how low you feel good people will not judge you or feel burdened by your pressures - they will just be there when you need them. A close friend said this to me once - no matter how bad it looks - this too shall pass.
Hang in there...
Anne

Anonymous said...

Anne, you may be right, but should it not be our nearest & dearest that we should be talking to, I thought that is what marriage is all about. As soon as one confides in a so called stranger, well a stranger to the N & D, then N & D start jumping to conclusions.

Mr F

Anne Herbert said...

Mr F,
You are right, our expectations of what things should be are not always the reality of what they are and so when we feel our nearest and dearest should be more understanding, we find they are not and then we end up hurt and disappointed. An outsider can sometimes help you rationalise stuff and reflect on the situation.
I am not an expert, just trying to be a friend.
@