Sunday, 21 September 2008

Why things must change...

My last post generated some interesting comments; here's my take on what's going on.

Mass consumerism is a very recent thing, it started post-war and really gathered momentum in the 1970's - suddenly it seemed you could have anything you wanted, but at a price. People started getting very rich - and as those of you have been rich will know - it is very addictive; you always want more.

So us entrepreneurs found cleverer and cleverer ways to entice you to buy more - brilliant marketing, enticing ads, messages that our product would make you sexier, thinner, more attractive. Fashion cycles accelerated and as soon as you had the latest thing, it wasn't the latest thing anymore - so was given to Oxfam. The world's resources started being consumed at an alarming rate.

And of course people's earnings could not keep up with the rampant demand, so a handy little thing called credit was introduced to enable the whole machine to continue being fed. The economy continued to expand, Gordon Brown crowed about his 'stable economy' and 'record growth' and for a while everything in the garden was very rosy.

But in the gold rush for more business, the financial institutions started getting a little reckless and started lending to people who really, really couldn't afford it. And so the inevitable started - defaults on loans, people posting the keys of their houses back through their bank's letterbox, thousands forced into bankruptcy and thousands more choosing it as an easy option to wipe their debt.

And the cancer of this 'sub-prime' debt spread throughout the banking sector as institutions swapped liabilities, undermining the whole financial system.

Hoping the problems were isolated, bits and pieces of government and institutional intervention followed; Northern Rock, Bradford and Bingley, RBS, Barclays, Merrill Lynch, AIG all bailed out in some shape or form. And now the US suddenly finds $800billion to try to solve the problem once and for all, the stock market shoots up, the traders breathe a sigh of relief - and everyone starts gambling again.

But it's obvious that this rampant consumerism can't continue.

There isn't enough money to feed the monster (especially now people are losing their jobs as well as their homes), there aren't enough resources in the world to feed the monster (especially now people are running scared through global warming), there isn't enough time to feed the monster (people are working harder and faster just to stand still) - and what's more, none of it is making anyone happy.

Plus how many crises and wars can the US rustle up the money for before the country itself becomes bankrupt?

Meantime, there is a growing awareness of the unfairness of a 'many to one' system in which capitalism allows a small number of individuals to share the spoils at the expense of the many billions who live on our planet in poverty, too weak to be able to fight their oppressors.

So, to me, the predicted 'Apocalypse' is not anything about an asteroid colliding with Earth, it is about the necessary breakdown of the current way of working to allow a new world order to come in.

My view is that this new world order will be able to meet every one's needs (not greeds) in a much fairer and collaborative way, in harmony with the planet and one another. Already there is an awakening of the 'collective consciousness' which is calling people towards a more spiritual way of existing.

Our human efforts to change things (what one might call the 'low energy light bulb' approach) are not enough to cut it; when the Universe finally delivers the solution mankind needs (and we are just starting to glimpse the changes now) it will deliver in a spectacularly powerful and infinitely intelligent way.

159 comments:

Stephen said...

I understand that the economic system is a giant cash machine that pays a small group of people (8% compound) on every penny borrowed. Whether the markets are in turmoil or not - these guys get 8% compound.

So the more money you print, the more money they make.

London is the hub of the operation and the richest square mile in the world.

This is unsustainable of course, but ensures that the people at the very top will be in a position to take the most effective control at the right time.

We can only hope that these people have something nice in mind for us.

So i really hope Rachel is right that it will be something good. Rather than the usual wars, strife, poverty, disease and death.

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheDLOG said...

"President George W. Bush's administration has asked Congress to move quickly on the plan unveiled late Friday to address the gravest financial crisis since the Great Depression, warning that the economy could collapse without swift action."

Sorry I thought it had crashed!!

Stop the wars and things will improve, just look at the amount of money that could be saved, TRILLIONS of dollars/pounds. This is the sort of money that has been ploughed into the current conflicts in the middle east. At we are knowhere nearer to peace and harmony.


DLOG

Anonymous said...

The economy has not crashed and has little chance of doing so in reality.

As to the economics of wars, the money is largely recycled within the industrialized economies so the actual cost in fiscal terms is not as great as you might think. The opportunity cost is huge though.

I do hope that Rachel is right and that we achieve some better balance but I fear we will not.

A personal observation for you. I earned a ridiculous amount of money very quickly working in the city. It fuelled a life of excess but it also separated me from the important stuff like my family. The richer I became the poorer I became.

C

TheDLOG said...

C, yes to your last comment, absolutely.
Also if the table were turned so to speak, ie; had one lost the lot, money wise, they to might have lost family, and so called friends, also.
Isn't it strange, NOT, how people dissappear when one has lost their well earned fortune, that is why we must all remember where we came from and who we are, and not to be greedy, but respect those who respect LIFE!!
Mind you I often question myself in so much that if I was a milionaire would I be married, hmm, worrying thought to myself!!

DLOG

Anonymous said...

In my limited experience you attract the people you choose to attract. All money does is give you more choices.

I have a friend from my city days, who was a eurobond trader. He made millions but never changed from the day he started. He left about the same time as me and bought a farm in Cumbria. He's still worth a fortune but you'd never know it. He's blissfully happy with a beautiful wife and a secure future.

Money gives you choices. You can choose wisely and end up in Cumbria or you can snort most of it up your nose if you wish.

C

PS. The best bit about having money is giving it away. Not in a blaze of publicity but secretly and seeing it change people's lives. Fab.

TheDLOG said...

C, you sound ever so familiar.
True money gives you choices, and true it should not change you and who you mix with, and what a wonderful thing to be able to give money away anonymousely, I have strange feeling that if you are not who I think you are, I really think you would know the person who I am thinking of!!

What I was sort of saying in the comment was;
would I have married, and if I did would I still be married, CHOICES hmm.

DLOG

Stephen said...

As a technolgist and innovator i have lived and worked through many different paradigm-shifts. In my case, the birth of the PC, Network Computing, Windows, The Internet, Mobile phones, Video Games, Robotics, The Dotcom bubble and more recently the awakening of the new world order and its interpretation as "The Matrix".

Technology is creeping into every orifice in our lives and is both empowering and disempowering. It gives and it takes. In return for convenience and performance - we are giving up our independence - and this in turn - means we are slowly giving away our freedoms.

If you are interested in hearing about the next paradigm-shift in 2012, email me at intrench@gmail.com.

Cheers

Stephen said...

ps. i asked you to email me because although i understand how things are going to happen - i am in no way against them.

Change always comes at a cost and change for the better, even more so.

I have begun to understand that change in itself isn't necessarily bad, if it leads to a brighter future for those generations that follow.

So i don't want to spread this knowledge around carelessly. But if it helps prepare, then thats ok.

Of course i could be barking mad of course. hee!

Anonymous said...

Is it just me or do we wander somewhat from the plot with our respective comments?

Rachel posts her views about the current economic hiccup and the next minute I am regaling you with life choices.

So I apologize for my deviant nature!

C

TheDLOG said...

Yeah, sorry all, my fault, went off on a tangent.

DLOG

Stephen said...

Ok, so lets accept that things are going to change over the next few years. It could be the end of economies, end of democracy, end of the world - or maybe all of them.

Question is - what are entrepreneurs going to do about it? Should they be doing anything about it?

Is it not your natural reaction to make a lot of money before that, have a great time and then run for cover?

If this is your natural reaction... How would you approach making a lot of money quickly? - and is joint venturing with likeminded folks a good way to achieve this?

TheDLOG said...

Joint venturing, absolutely, I myself have started to get this going within my/our industry, printing.

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Stephen

If the end of economy comes it will be the ones with stockpiles of food and the means to defend it who will prevail. Money will be useless.

That's not going to happen but feel free to buy your body weight in canned food just in case.

C

Stephen said...

yea, that's when it happens. guess i was thinking hypothetically and stuff.

Anonymous said...

Facinating post by Rachel.

There is a lot of talk going on about the NWO. Some say its going to be a negative change and some positive.

What does anyone think?

Ed

Stephen said...

There will come a time when humanity is tested.

I like to characterise the spirit of man as a noble knight.

What keeps him and his fellows safe is a shield.

This shield is the shield of "unconditional love".

When all around you is war and strife and they are just about to stick the knife in you......Look squarely in the face of evil and give it "unconditional love". Let it see itself in the reflection of your heart. Let it see something ugly, bitter and twisted breaking something of beauty that loves it, even as it tries to do its evil deed.

Let it see the true spirit of God in man. Something it never will have.

Don't let it bathe itself in your fear. Don't let it rejoice in your misery.

We are sentient beings. We were intended into life, we just are in life and we will continue on our journey long after evil has had its way.

They may win the battle, but they are so backward that they can never win the war, unless we allow them to ground ourselves in their ignorance.

TheDLOG said...

I am probaly going off on another tangent, but, I wonder how different things would be if Rachel and others like her were put in charge of the country/world, and it's finances, what a better world it would be, I am sure they woulkd win the WAR Stephen, as you put it. It might even turn out to be EUTOPIA, hmmm what a pleasing thought.

The only issue now is to put the plan into action!!

DLOG

Stephen said...

Unconditional love needs no plan DLOG. It just is. We just are.

When the time comes you will see who is part of the guardian wall around humanity.

I am sure you will be there and Rachel too.

Anonymous said...

Ed

I think people are losing perspective at the moment because of the speed and magnitude of the change to markets.

Rachel is right that the US cannot sustain its current economic and military trajectory. But I wouldn't write off the US just yet.

I think what has to change is a more inclusive approach to world affairs. This crisis has shown the interdependency of markets and hopefully will mark the end of political unilateralism and isolationism. Globalization has made the world a materially richer place but has led to a violent clash of cultures and views. The NWO needs to adopt a more cooperative and coercive approach rather than the current intolerant and often violent one.

This is not the end of the world. We've simply woken up with a debt hangover and it hurts like hell. We'll recover and be embarrassed for a while but in time we'll forget it.

C

Anonymous said...

DLOG

What makes you think this isn't already utopia for some of us?

C

TheDLOG said...

Eutopia is for everyone/the world, that is true Eutopia!!
The only place that came near to eutopia was in Ancient Greece when the GODS, ie Zues Aphrodite, where in charge, so to speak!!

DLOG

Stephen said...

Ed, This will not affect people like Anonymous/C because they seem to have found a safe place called utopia.

This will affect the ordinary man and woman, who will presumably be expected to pay for the mismanagement of the few - who presumably come from a place called utopia.

I'm hearing that the U.S election is unlikely to run a natural course this time around. Presumably meaning that George Bush will continue to hold office for the foreseeable future. I cannot verify this right now, but this is what some sources are saying.

I guess, we will watch this space as to the likely result.

TheDLOG said...

God help us if Mr Bush does stay!!

It appears that Mr C, is in a world of his own, I'm alright Jack, I live in my own world eutopia Eutopia.
Forgot one thing, there was another eutopia, the Garden of Eden!! but that didn't last for long, I reckon that snake belonged to ELZ heehee!!

DLOG

Anonymous said...

What is it coming to, a Government Department did not allow it's staff to go to a union meeting, so, the union concerned are now suing the department concerned, 8000 approx, members now stand to get up to £200 compensation each.


N

Anonymous said...

I was only suggesting that utopia as an idea of universal perfection cannot exist because we are all different. We would have to all be conformist zombies to live in an ideal utopia. Oh hang on I see your point now, the vast majority of people are conformist zombies...after all if they weren't, fashion and consumerism wouldn't work...

I cannot imagine Bush wanting to stay for a minute longer than he needs to.

To be fair to those compensation seeking employees (er, conformist zombies) if the government cannot follow their own rules then whose at fault here?

C

TheDLOG said...

C, The Government I see at fault, that is why this whole situation is tumbling down. They make the rules but don't abide the rules, cos it doen't suit them, but they to suit us! Or do they? Lets oust them and start our own Government, I nominate Rachel as our PM, C you can be Chancellor, Stephen you could be Education, what you all reckon.

DLOG

Stephen said...

I'm not sure what you mean by "conformist zombies". I suspect many of these people are no different than you or i.

I really resent it when people presume so much about other people.

It smacks of arrogance. The type that no doubt has to served to weaken the integrity of the worlds financial markets.

TheDLOG said...

C, "fashion and consumerism wouldn't work..." of course fashion and consumerism would work, if it is as you say, conformist zombies, then we would all be wearing the same clothing and have the same hair-styles, and driving the same cars, and so on and so on!

DLOG

Anonymous said...

I was just saying that for the idea of utopia to work people would all have to be the same.

I don't think people are conformist zombies any more than you do. However, I do think that people are quick to blame others for their predicament before looking to themselves.

This country has seen personal borrowing top a trillion pounds. Ok you may argue that banks and the government have been lax and you'd be right. But that doesn't absolve the individuals who have borrowed to fuel a consumer boom.

You cannot go spending huge amounts on credit then cry foul when you have to pay the stuff back.

Personally, I'm benefiting from the current crisis because I didn't borrow in the boom. Now I am buying a business for cash for a fraction of the price I would have paid just six months ago.

As Rachel knows only too well, cash is king (until the economy collapses and then its cans of baked beans and weapons!).

C

Stephen said...

My own view is that the psychology of the masses is largely determined by the higher order of the day.

The upper classes cannot on one hand expect to have a high degree of control over the general public and the other hand criticise them for overspending. Many people are in debt, not because they are greedy and stupid, but because they needed somewhere to live and signing up for a mortgage is the only way of finding a home.

I know so many people in this predicament.

As a matter of fact the problem lies with the financial institutions who have allowed the markets to collapse. These are the places that had the most to gain from consumers in the high times. They can hardly now criticise the people who were part of their game.

Consumer Need, Demand, Desire, Want etc is only there - because the financial institutions encourage it to be there.

If there was no such thing as 100% mortgage - nobody would have one.

TheDLOG said...

Stephen, yes I agree with you 100%, further was recently if remember that there was talk about getting 150% mortgages and pay back term 40/50years, of course I may have this wrong, but if this was the case then it is even more lunacy by those in the banking world!!
C if you don't mind me asking, you give the impression that you have plenty of money, enough not to work and to give to charity, why are you buying another business?

DLOG

TheDLOG said...

Sorry all, but english is getting worse, just read my comment again, think I will go to school and learn, mind you me mum and dad were right, I should have gone to school when I had the chance, heehee,
Sorry to change to another issue

DLOG

Stephen said...

i knew what you meant DLOG.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

No C, power is king - Red Letter Days had £3.3 million cash at bank when it went into administration it was Barclays who refused to let us touch it.

This whole thing is about abuse of power. Which when mixed with greed leads to disastrous imbalances - as we are now seeing.

Following the logic if I 'overborrow then I need to pay it back' similarly if I gamble and lose why must the public foot my bill?

The US should allow the economy to collapse, it would be a great leveller - and it would force everyone to return to basic human values.

Stephen said...

I totally agree Rachel. What the government have done is to set a very dangerous precedent where the public have been asked to bail the banks out, yet these same banks and instutions are cutting the public income stream off by making people redundant and then coming after their homes if they default on payment. So the same mortgage company i just bailed out, is going to come after me when i cannot pay my mortgage?? crazy.

In a bail-out economy where the public bails institutions out - it is only right and fair to expect the government to do the same for its citizens.

If things got so bad, there would be riots - another reason why we are beginning to see troops being deployed inside U.S for the first time.

Power in the hands of the ignorant brings much cruelty.

TheDLOG said...

And one more thing, according to the news last night, LBC, the Queen is now begining to feel the Credit Crunch, how sad my heart bleeds for her, and she is asking that we, the tax payer, give her more money. MY opinion, I can't give it cause it would be to rude, no what I mean!!

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Leaving blame aside for a moment...

Should we let the banks fail? If we do then we avoid moral hazard by showing people, rather painfully, that there is a downside to risk. The problem is that the impact falls largely on who you would view as innocent. Your pension funds would be decimated for starters and the economic impact would see millions unemployed with a resulting impact on government finances.

Ok so you bail out the banks? This is arguably unjust but may stop a wider economic crisis. The bad news is that government borrowing will also reach epic proportions and the general public will end up paying via higher taxes and inflation.

Propping up the banks may feel like a lousy solution but its probably the best of two evils.

C

PS. DLOG - why not invest in a business now? I don't think the economy will collapse and I can make more than 30% ROI on this business within the first 12 months without doing anything to it.

TheDLOG said...

C, That is very good, I wish you all the success, Like I said before I myself would be a little scared to have bundles of money for fear of what I may or may not do, like I said before I like a little danger!!
I do feel though the banks are a bit naughty, they make bundles out of us any way, then when things go 'tits-up', we end up paying more, their mistake their problem let them bail themselves out, Rachel had to, Stephen had to, and I have had to bail myself out of variuous situations in the past. No I am not jealous or envious of any one with money, I like people for who they are, sincerity.

DLOG

Stephen said...

C, this is all pure blackmail.

The banks and institutions have decided that they don't like the game that they created anymore and they don't want to play with each other - unless the general public bail them out of course. Unless the general public are prepared to get poorer in order to prop up their gangster run operation.

And then there is a danger, that pumping the money in would see more of it evaporate into fraudsters pockets.

No. This is the time when those who have taken the money out of the system - SHOULD PUT IT BACK.

This is the time when the U.S army should not be gearing up to appease the people. But when it should be gearing up to raid the swiss bank accounts of those who were entrusted with the well being of the financial system.

The people are currently being treated to the biggest scam in history.

TheDLOG said...

Bloody hell Stephen, ABSOLUTELY 500%, could not agree more you.

TheDLOG

Anonymous said...

Yeah lets close down all the banks...

Hang on, what about all those depositors who keep their cash in them? Should they lose out because the bank leveraged their positions? Ok so you'll protect them up to £35k under the current protection scheme. So screw the shareholders. Hang on you are the shareholders as your pension funds invest heavily in bank shares.

Stephen/ DLOG - why don't you just go outside and shout at yourselves for a bit because that's effectively the same thing.

As I said before we are all to blame here either directly or indirectly. You have every right to feel aggrieved but burning your local branch of Barclays (however satisfying that might be for Rachel) won't actually solve anything.

C

TheDLOG said...

Tell you what C, why don't Stephen & I become the new Krays, because it appears that you and the Government believe in extorsion, so it must legal, then we can go and do what the hell we like.

LONG LIVE THE KRAYS, RICHARDSONS and all who were acquinted with them, so that includes you also C.

Think I better get of this blog though, I am in a real foul mood today!!

TheDLOG

Stephen said...

Sorry C. We can see the shape-shifters for what they are.

When it suits them, the markets are large and complex and only the exclusive club can solve the problems.

When they screw up, they expect to share the problems with the wider public, who haven't got a clue what they are up to.

This is yet another problem with executive accountability and heads must roll for this travesty.

So don't go laying the problems at my door, although i know the financiers will ultimately do.

My conscience is clear and i have worked with many of these people in the city and i will continue to call them cheats and liars to their face.

I always have...so i'm not about to stop.

TheDLOG said...

Hoorah for real people Stephen, (that's you by the way)!

TheDLOG

Stephen said...

Well i got tired of their stupid little games years ago DLOG.

Inferior minded people in power.

They can destroy you - but they cannot destroy the truth.

Anonymous said...

I'm not defending the actions of the banks but what I am saying is that you cannot view it in isolation from the wider economy.

We have all benefited from those 'evil' banks in the form of cheap (too cheap as it happens) credit, big dividends and significant tax receipts.

We are all complict to some extent and until we all accept that we cannot build a proper fairer system.

Shit happens. You can either accept it and move or get left behind.

C

Stephen said...

No one has benefited from all this credit C, except for the money men.

Its all just one big lie that the general public are complicit.

People live to the system. If the system is this - then they live like this. If its that, then they live like that. Its always been the same.

When they want people to give their lives in war. They give their lives. When they want them to take on more debt, they are encouraged too take on more debt.

It is an illusion that people have the freedom to choose, because there is always someone or something one step ahead of them, dangling the carrot in front of them.

Consumer power is an illusion.

I chose to get left behind (so to speak) - in order to move forward.

TheDLOG said...

Why should we just ACCEPT it, we are human just like the big boys that call the shots, I hate being rude to people, but, you really do appear to have an attitude of I'm alright jack, F... the rest of you, i've got loads of money, well how very very sad that money rules your life, I'd rather be HAPPY, with F... all!!

I really must get off here, I am really itching for a slagging match today...........

TheDLOG (Sir)

Stephen said...

Well i think its time to switch to survival mode DLOG.

Lean times ahead.

Get back to growing fruit and veg.
Get rid of the second car.
Get fit
Survival training kit
Downsize to a caravan maybe (ha - don't tell my wife)
Stop listening to liars
Make a lot of money by sticking it back to the bourgeoisie

Die young maybe...
ha!

Anonymous said...

"It is an illusion that people have the freedom to choose"

Wow!!

Personally, I have more faith in humanity. People have choices, sometimes difficult ones, but choices never the less. With choice comes responsibility.

This has nothing to do with money but everything to do with attitiude. You can wallow in self pity or you can get off your arse and make things happen.

C

TheDLOG said...

Nah, go and live along the Yangtze River, she can if she wants, (the wife that is), and i'll go fishing everyday, eat what I catch and live in a tent, that way won't have to pay for someone else's cok-ups heehee. Then i'll die and no one will have to worry about might funeral cos they won't know where I am, ha

TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

Mind you perhaps I won't, thats an easy life, perhaps I'll become gangster, and live dangerously, then I can become an MP and shaft everyone aswell, legally, heehhe.

DLOG

Stephen said...

The kind of self-interest and attitude you speak of anonymous is what got us into this mess.

In my life i have seen it from both angles - So i am lucky enough to know about the most abundant choice and what it is like to have none.

I feel you are very narrow minded anonymous. There are a lot of entrepreneurs who are successful, yet they are still able to keep a clear conscience.

And then there are those pigs who just swill away, trampling anyone and everyone under foot.

In the good name of self..

Piggy, pig, pigs they are...

Well the big bad wolf is here now.

Anonymous said...

Stephen.

How can taking personal responsibility have led us to this? Personally I think the opposite is true. If people were more aware of their impact and less greedy we would not be in the mess we are in.

You can carry on blaming others but the reality is that we all have to change and the first step to doing that is to acknowledge the contribution we have made to the current situation.

I have admitted my part and I am getting on with things. I cannot change the situation but I can provide employment for a number of people and continue to give most of my profit away. If that's self interest then I plead guilty.

There are those that do stuff and there are those that criticise. I'd prefer to be in the former camp even if it means I get some things wrong.

Life's too short.

C

TheDLOG said...

ve to who you are, mind I think we would love to know who are!!

TheDLOG

Stephen said...

Anonymous, The responsibility for the failure in our financial systems lies fairly and squarely with those who greedily hoard the power.

There is no devolution of responsibility because those with the power have hoarded it to themselves.

They wanted absolute power and with it should come absolute responsibility. They seek a nanny, big brother state to centralise control so with it should come absolute responsibility.

They cannot get away with trying to assign responsibility after the event.

Responsibility is ALL theres, because they ultimately hold ALL the power.

Go and pay peoples wages and they should be thankful to you. Sack them when they do a useless job or try to undermine your business. But don't assign responsibility for financial disaster - when you hold all the power.

Anonymous said...

Stephen

Who are these people? I'm wondering if I have ever met these people with superhuman power. When I worked in the city it was simply ridiculous pressure so I don't think I had this power and I don't remember thinking anyone else had it either.

The distribution of power in a society is always uneven as we all have different talents. Some of these talents are rarer than others.

If you haven't already you should read Rousseau. He believed that any society corrupts the natural state of man. I think he was probably right. The only state without corruption would be anarchy and in that state anything goes.

If you live within a society you are complicit within it (see Social Contract theory). I am not saying blame is equally shared but I am saying that we all have a share of it.

C

Stephen said...

Rousseau is partly right. What he should have said was that "any society controlled by the few, will from time to time need to be corrupted, in order to maintain the self interests of the few".

If you worked in the financial sector at the highest levels of equity ownership, you will have met some of these people.

You would know how uneven the balance of power really is and you would realise that the ordinary man is nothing more than a puppet, with only as much freedom to keep him believing that he truly is free.

And the position is likely to get far worse. Don't take my word for it. Watch the power play unfold.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

'Money' is just bits of paper and entries on bank statements... It only works so long as the roundabout keeps going, but the moment the roundabout stops it will all be worthless.

The 'rich' must be shit scared.

A meltdown would actually bring us back to true value - and the power will then lie with the people who have the real commodities - water, food and energy; know how, building skills.

Survival will depend on groups of people coming together in collaboration, each with their contribution... I'll bring the firewood from my garden and the apples from my orchard, you bring your bread and we will share and barter.

In this world people who grab more than their fair share, or who try to take without giving will not last long.

Our pension will be in our wisdom, and relying on our family and community to support us, not with some financial institution.

That is the alternative to the current situation.

TheDLOG said...

"Survival will depend on groups of people coming together in collaboration, each with their contribution... I'll bring the firewood from my garden and the apples from my orchard, you bring your bread and we will share and barter".

What a wonderful life that would be!!
It would be like the Muskateers, all for one - and one for all. Did I get that the right way round?

DLOG

Rachel Elnaugh said...

By the way, barter has the government shit scared - because it can't (easily) be taxed.

But then, under that system, who'd need a government anyway?

Stephen said...

The word "dependancy" is at the heart of control, power and influence.

A world full of dependent people is a world ripe for the pickings.

If you were to do a self-analysis you would see just how much you are dependent on the outside world in order to survive.

Similarly, if you were to reduce dependency on the outside world, you would see how much safer and stronger you feel.

Confidence comes from within, it does not come from anything outside.

A world full of grafters and honest barterers is certainly preferable to what we have now.

I would be very happy to work with you guys on such a project.

Anonymous said...

A romantic vision for sure but sadly very far removed from reality.

If society does break down hunger and violence will be commonplace. I also live in the country and have resources such as land but I realise that without the means to defend it it will be taken by those either with nothing to barter or no intention of doing do. A return to the dark ages is not a golden future.

By the way, the rich are not scared by the current economic crisis. They see it as an opportunity. Sure money may not have value in a failed economy but the rich have the means to convert it to tangible assets such as land, here or elsewhere, and have been doing so for a while.

C

Stephen said...

You are definately right there C, the rich have been all about grabbing as much of the landscape as they possibly can get away with.

And i also agree that it won't be of any value to them if people just walk up and take it away from them.

I like Rachel though, believe that they are running scared, which means that they will do anything to maintain their version of the status quo. Even if it means resorting to diversionary tactics such as starting a 3rd world war.

Well, as I write i am reminded that the new world order might just save us all from impoverishment this weekend in Washington.

The "totalitarian tip-toe" as they say.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

A world very much removed from YOUR reality C...

Personally, I don't think there will be a return to the 'Dark Ages'.

In case you are not aware (too busy making money from other people's downfall to notice?) there has been a quiet but powerful rising of the Collective Consciousness for several years now. Humankind is yearning for peace and harmony to replace the greed and conflict - and it will be delivered.

We are at the leading edge of the ever expanding Universe and when a critical mass (or tipping point) is reached the vibration of the human race will rise to a place which reveals a new dimension.

This is what I believe the 'Apocalyse' is all about.

No one laughed at Star Trek - but where was the fashion, the possessions, the greed, the violence? OK a few Kling-ons attacked from time to time but good always triumphed over evil.

Those who live in a place of fear will always be troubled by loss and violence; those who live in a place of empowerment and joy can never be oppressed.

Anonymous said...

Rachel

With all my heart I hope you are right. However, I think that the nirvana you seek is actually an internal state of mind rather than an external reality.

C

Stephen said...

We live in a world of infinite possibility C.

We should never just accept the world for what it is. All we need is great leadership to get everything back on the rails.

Let us hope that these people are allowed to rise above the dross that are currently elbowing their way to power.

Anonymous said...

Stephen

I absolutely agree with you.

However, what worries me is the sense of collective victim hood on this blog and a refusal to admit that we all share responsibility for the society in which we live.

Rather than sit back and hypothesize about a golden future, we should all be out there trying to make it happen in whatever small way we can.

C

Stephen said...

C, there is time enough to help people to put the pieces back again.

But before that time, they have to learn the hard truths.

We cannot lead people who are so entrenched by the system to be totally blind. Neither was there any real possibility of leading people effectively with the gatekeepers of corruption at the healm.

If there is a lack of responsibility it is because many people have fought for years against the system and no longer wish to be complicit in its ways.

We would sooner wait for the day when our collective love and knowhow can be put to good use.

For now, i guess we will wait whilst they make their final plays.

Anonymous said...

Rachel

By the way, I've not made money by anyone's downfall. On the contrary, my businesses still employ people and will continue to do so. The wealth creation is shared with my staff and the wider community.

I am a long term investor, grow my businesses in a sustainable way so that we are well placed to invest on both sides of the cycle. I may not achieve stellar growth like you did but at least I'm still in business.

C

Stephen said...

It is a sad fact that in order for mankind to reach enlightenment that they must endure the greatest of losses and pain. For it is only in facing the spectre of the devil within, that we are able to exorcise it from within and to banish it to a place where it will not disrupt our spiritual path anymore.

Look into the abyss and resolved to overcome it - we will all find that joyous place in our hearts that many call enlightenment.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

C

My comment was in response to yours: "Personally, I'm benefiting from the current crisis because I didn't borrow in the boom. Now I am buying a business for cash for a fraction of the price I would have paid just six months ago."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume it's from some unlucky beggar who has fallen on hard times.

By the way I am still in business, it's just a different business; one that is about helping people make golden futures in whatever small way that I can.

TheDLOG said...

C, perhaps I read what you said the wrong way, but if I did not here goes, "and so is Rachel still in business, just not the same type as before". And have to say it, she is very considerate of people and their feelings in the course of her now business, but I do not think I could say the same for you, no matter what your business. You have done well for yourself, and I congratulate you, but you do really seem to forget the less fortunate (than you) people in this world and think they will be OK.

This credit crunch could and no doubt will cause people to lose their homes their families and sad to to say some may succumb to taking their own lives.

You do seem very up yourself C, I wonder if you would have the same attitude if everything did go pearshaped, not that I wish that on anyone of course.

TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

Bloody hell Rachel, just as I hit the publish your comment button, your reply came up, synchrinicity I dare say!!

TheDLOG

Rachel Elnaugh said...

Trust DLOG to be online posting at the same time as me! We are synchronised...

Personally, I am looking forward to the 'Light Ages'.

I think they will arrive sooner than everyone thinks.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

DLOG

Even more synchronistic that you left a comment exactly on the same lines as mine at the time I was posting!!!

C - I have also just read your comment: "I think that the nirvana you seek is actually an internal state of mind rather than an external reality."

Yes of course 'Nirvana' is a state of mind; there is no such thing as reality, just your take on it. The world is a hologram and how you see it and experience it absolutely depends on your state of mind...

Where you see Dark Ages I see Light Ages.

Where you see an 'opportunity to pick up a business cheap' I see the entrepreneur's pain.

TheDLOG said...

And by the way C, you are most deffinately not who I thought you were, the person I was thinking of came from absolutely nothing, not even a pair of shoes to wear, his and his brothers toys were snakes and chamelions, but he made it to the top, Treasurer of HSBC Tokyo, now he is on board of Directors for FOREX, and is CEO for another company in Cyprus. But, he never forgets the hardship that he had and will mix with anyone of any class at any time. He still remembers who helped him on his quest for success, and worries for those less fortunate than himself, for loss that they may/will suffer.

TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

'Nirvana'
The Buddha described nirvana as the perfect peace of the mind that is free from craving, anger and other afflictive states (kilesa). This peace, which is in reality the fundamental nature of the mind, is revealed when the root causes of the afflictive states are dissolved.

What a wonderful thing!!

TheDLOG

Stephen said...

Yes, i feel many people i meet could be said to be enlightened. In the sense that they believe the world is really an illusion centered on an even greater illusion

- "the concept of self".

We are not self. We are that which controls all vehicles (including self) within the realm of illusion.

So nirvana is reachable at an intellectual level. But it can only be fully experienced when expressed in the service of mankind.

I wouldn't know this for sure because i myself have barely attained an intellectual level of enlightenment.

Anonymous said...

Rachel

That 'entrepreneurs pain' you feel is actually relief on his part. Relief because I am securing the future of his workforce, something I thought you might be more appreciative of given your past.

DLOG - I am aware of people less fortunate than myself which is why I am trying hard to improve things for as many people as I can. I just choose to do it without the adulation of a media profile.

C

Anonymous said...

Stephen

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. Sadly, I do think that things have to get worse in some respects before we see substantive change.

However, scared people are easy to coerce. Whether it is scared of the illusion of terrorism (more people get hurt in the UK putting their trousers on) or scared of economic collapse. Social adversity has always been the catalyst.

Unfortunately, that change has not always been good. The rise of Nazism was on the back of social and economic ruin in Germany.

Let's hope that if we are about to experience a fundamental shift in consciousness it is in the right direction.

C

Stephen said...

"Let's hope that if we are about to experience a fundamental shift in consciousness it is in the right direction."


Amen to that C.

TheDLOG said...

C, "I am aware of people less fortunate than myself which is why I am trying hard to improve things for as many people as I can".

I am sure you are C, those people are your prey, for with out those less fortunate people you would be unable to function.

As Rachel said in a previous comment; "Correct me if I'm wrong but I assume it's from some unlucky beggar who has fallen on hard times".

Yes I really think this true, this is you.
Come on C, give us a chance, leave your bubble, your world of utopia, don't kid yourself, it really doesn't exist, go out and see what the real world is about, see those ones who will suffer. They/we do work hard, we are not lazy, we want to survive. Go on take a leaf out of Rachels book, help others, you will be amazed at how much satisfaction you will get, give a little for FREE, see how happy those people will be, watch them smile and start to think positively.


TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

DLOG

If you read back you'll see that I was the one saying that we need to improve things now not simply dream.

This debate started because I said we all have to take some responsibility for the state of society. You cannot simply blame the rich.

As for me being a predator, the guy I am buying the business from wants to look after his staff and retire. I can help him achieve both things. Perhaps I should let him struggle on and probably wind up his business in 12 months? Is that what you are suggesting?

C

TheDLOG said...

C, we have a similar situation here with our business, why don't you help him out financialy until things improve and he can sell his business, if he so wishes, for the right price. We have a friend who is doing this for us, ie, helping out financialy until things, get back to normal, shall we say. What a star that man is, he like the previous person I mentioned came to England with nothing, made a frotune and is now glad to help others out, without I might add, with NO FINANCIAL GAIN for himself. So it is not all of the rich that are to blame, just a greedy few. If you remember in a previous post, someone advised me that Rachel was a millionaire, but she is not greedy and spoiling the financial system, she is doing her utmost to help others have a comfortable life.
Further more, why should little old me, (not that old really) have to help the banks out, I have paid my way to make them wealthy, they cock up and then I and others have to help them out, my answer to them tough, you made the mistake you lose the business. Where were the banks when Rachel needed help to save the business, and she had the money there.
It appears that they don't want to take the responsibility for their mistakes, and just blame everyone else, same as any large institution really.

And just to put the records straight again, I was unaware that Rachel was a millionaire at the time of making contact, and to be perfectly honest it makes no difference to me now either, wether she has a £1, £10, £100, million , a billion or even a trillion, I admire her for her strength and courage for all she is doing. Perhaps we could start cloning Rachel then we could all look to a better society and everyone in the world could benefit from her valuable time, even you C.


TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

Oops, forgot to say, maybe you may oneday have the benefit of getting to know me for who I am also.

But then perhaps not as I have no financial gain for you!!

TheDLOG

Anonymous said...

DLOG

I have never met Rachel but what I admire about her is that she had a very public failure but instead of withdrawing to lick her wounds she is out there trying to make a difference. Good on her.

As for me, its not about the money. The guy I am buying the business from really wants to retire so funding him temporarily is not an option. Don't feel too sorry for him by the way as he will be very well off when he retires. I have asked him to stay on as chairman so he's not disappearing completely.

I agree with you that the banks have a lot of blame in the current crisis. However, others are culpable too.

Should we bail out the banks? Well as I said before its unjust but probably protects the poor more than letting them fail.

C

Stephen said...

DLOG, don't lose your spirit on this.

I can see why Rachel thinks a lot of you. You are not some hopeless cynical robot. You are a real human being crying out for justice.

The powers that be look down their noses at this. They resent those who have still managed to maintain these essential human qualities. They say they are a weakness.

Never give these qualities up DLOG, because they are all that makes you human.

If you do, you could end up like one of those psychopathic morons that i now refuse to work with.

Anonymous said...

Interesting read,

As C states, if you let the financial system collapse there will be far more problems with civil unrest and the like.

The barter economy sounds halcyon; fine if you have an orchard - not so good if you live in a high rise with no electricity or heat.

Who is responsible? There seems to be quite a bit of finger pointing here in the general direction of bankers and governments. This largely started because or irresponsible lending in the states - people with out even a job were lent mortgage money with no way whatsoever of paying it back.
Now those people have lost their homes, however they should never have owned them in the first place! I completely agree that this is preying on the weak and the ignorant, however how did they ever think they could repay the money? The people selling the mortgages got their commision up front so they've done very well (and perhaps should be castigated for this).

If the bankers had realised the impact their lending policy was ultimately going to have do you think they'd have done the same thing? If the government realised would they likewise have been complicit?

It's a scary time at the moment, however without the bailout the weak and the poor will suffer the most - I applaud government efforts to support the markets and just hope that they prove successful.

Dlog, on your point about your friend who pulled himself up by his bootstraps and now is a corporate money man (formerly senior at HSBC) do you blame him or just the other bankers and power brokers?

Paul.

TheDLOG said...

Paul, I do not blame him, as an example, he blamed Barrings bank for it's own downfall not Nick Leeson, the bank should never have gave him more money, irrelevent what he said, there was and should be a limit. Likewise with those people who want to borrow to buy property, the banks should have been careful, I mean have you tried to open a Bank account in the last few years, even if you already have an account in a particular bank you still have to go through same performance to open another, so how can these banks lend to someone who has not got the means of paying back.
Sorry but the greedy banks/government are at fault, and we the general public have to foot the bill, have we not given enough in interest and bank charges already to these extortianist people, they just want more and more, NO NO NO, there is no more to give.

DLOG

Stephen said...

Great story Paul, but the truth is we all know which way these things swing.

We are beginning to see the true power behind the money men, when they can hold the people to ransom like this.

This is their game and they have the power to play it anyway they wish. I do not believe this is a desperate measure as it seems.

You should work for BBC. You'd do over well there. Great party line.

I can get you an interview if you like.

Anonymous said...

Dlog,

Not intending to pick a fight here - but who are 'the greedy banks..'? Is it the board, the shareholders or the senior staff? You friend was one of the senior staff - how is he not accountable?

I agree with you about Nick Leeson, Barings were far too arrogant and happy to coin in the paper profits he was generating - however he earned millions from the bank through his deceit and he should shoulder some responsibility for the 900million or so which resulted from his wrong doings - he was not stupid just foolish.....

How does Nick Leeson differ from the power men in today's markets?

Anonymous said...

Stephen,

I know enough senior people at the Beeb to secure that myself thanks.

Ok then, what would you do to sort this mess? And, same question to you as to Dlog - who is responsible for this - vague references to Banks and governments is just not specific enough.

Paul.

Stephen said...

DLOG,

I used to have a formula for this sort of thing when i was auditing companies.

It went like this
1 + 1 = 74.

Basically i had worked out that there were 72 major risks inside every organisation in this country and so my job was to go into every company and audit against these 72 risks. And of course 1 + 1 would only equal 2 if all the risks were mitigated or underwritten in some way.

I hasten to add that none of these serious risks were covered by compliance with any regulatory authority. In other words, no one was addressing them.

The only way these risks seem to be exposed is either by hacker activity, through industrial espionage or rogue trading.

But they are just sitting there waiting to blow up in executive faces.

Perhaps i understand now why they are not addressed. Especially as when banks screw up the worlds financial systems, they can get bailed out by its customers.

Free Market forces.... toosh...

Stephen said...

"Ok then, what would you do to sort this mess?"

The horse has bolted Paul. We are no longer in control of our financial systems, as we are no longer in control of manufacturing, food, energy etc etc.

The "game" has shifted to being played out on a global scale. Accountability is diluted far and wide, to be almost invisible.

The problem is not meant to be solved, without bloodshed.

Therein lies the problem.

TheDLOG said...

Anonymouse, " how is he not accountable?"
Because he made HSBC what it is today, although some years ago now, but he was not one to lend money willy nilly so to speak. HSBC is still a well respected Bank, although you may find that a little contradictory to my previous comments. Somehow he always knew and still does know how the markets are going to go. I do not particuarly like banks but we are all somewhat put in a situation where we no choice but to use them.

I prefer Rachels idea;- "Survival will depend on groups of people coming together in collaboration, each with their contribution... I'll bring the firewood from my garden and the apples from my orchard, you bring your bread and we will share and barter".

I do not really want to say to much more about him or his views as I may inadvertenly let his name slip, and I respect his confidetiality, sorry guys.

DLOG

TheDLOG said...

STephen, I'll accept the invite of an interview with BBC! heehee

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Stephen,

It's a shame you feel bloodshed the way to go.

I find this blog interesting to read and haven't until now posted comments - however I would have hoped for something a little more constructive than 'bloodshed' from a regular poster here.

Pointing out imperfections and throwing criticism are easy - coming up with solutions tough.

Paul.

Stephen said...

Go on then. I'll make it 100 posts.

Best ever. I think.

Rachel really knows how to put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Anonymous said...

Dlog,

'I'll bring the firewood from my garden and the apples from my orchard, you bring your bread and we will share and barter'

Again this is an excellent strategy for the fortunate few with something to bring to the table.

What about the elderly, infirm, children and disabled who live in inner city housing - what can they trade? Where is their heat and food coming from?

These same people need support from the state for food, clothing and warmth - if the markets collapse and the government goes bust what happens to them?

Look at the suffering in several parts of the world where this has happened and the poorest always suffer the most....

Paul.

Stephen said...

I think it is absurd to ask for a solution under the circumstances Paul. It shows how little you know of the enormity of the problem.

This crash has be orchastrated. This is obvious to me and to may others.

We will see how it plays out, but like DLOG, i think Rachel is closer to where we should be.

But in my view they will not give us financial freedom without a fight.

TheDLOG said...

Paul, "What about the elderly, infirm, children and disabled who live in inner city housing - what can they trade? Where is their heat and food coming from?"
The elderly and infirm, they can come for free, have they not done enough for this society already, the children, they can have fun, by picking apples and other fruits and veg for they are our future, lets give them a chance. Everyone can have an input, those that cannot provide food and heat can help cook and entertain everyone else, everybody will have a purpose as everyone should now.
PEACE, HARMONY LOVE and RESPECT for ever I say, and you can put that in any order you like but at the end of day it is all one group.

And one more thing:- MAD MAX, I think this is probably the outcome sorry to say.

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Dlog and Stephen,

Interesting chatting on this. I think our views are very different and I respect your strength of belief in your own individual opinions.

I will have a wager with either of you that in 5 years time we won't be living in a Mad Max or a barter economy in this country (that'll be a bushel of potatos from me if you win - hard cash from you if I turn out to be correct!)

Paul.

TheDLOG said...

Paul there will not be any hard cash as such, all those greedy beggers will be put on their own little island far away from the harmony of ours, then they can barter with their own millions, then they will become so jealous of each other they will end up killing each other for more and more and more and more, then they will exstinct themselves, ha good riddons to bad rubish.

DLOG

Stephen said...

I won't take that wager if you don't mind Paul.

Which ever way it comes out - I suspect the tax payer will end up footing the bill.

Stephen said...

Rachel, how would you be approaching investment right now?

What is your instinct?

Anonymous said...

Stephen, given your prognosis of social unrest and bloodshed my advice would be kevlar, bandages, blood products and vegetable seeds. Oh and you'd better stock up on most drugs as I'm not sure how many apples you'd have to trade for analgesics. I have some willow trees so you could chew on the bark for free but I'm not sure how you'd regulate the dose.

C

TheDLOG said...

C, with all due respect, why do you fail to see the social unrest that is here/coming.
The world is at war, markets are crashing, banks are closing, people are becoming unable to live a normal life because of the cost of everything. You seem to be the only one who is not suffering or cost cutting, even Rachel mentioned in her veggie post that it was cheaper to be a veggie, now I do not know what her finances are like and I don't wish to know, thta is her private business, but it shows that even she is looking to make cuts where ever she can.
Maybe you have the Moneytree that every one looks for, or maybe you found the end of the rainbow, WAKE UP SMELL THE ROSES, go around and see what is happening to others less, well very less, fortunate than you. With your attitude you could be an MP, they to live in world of there own!!

And by the way every one, are we going to make this 200 poster, Rachel could get in the Guiness Book of Records heehee

TheDLOG

Anonymous said...

DLOG this is not social unrest and the world is not at war. If you lived in downtown Mogadishu I might agree with you but in comfortable and safe Essex?

We are all experiencing some inflation but nothing of the scale even we have seen before. Yes, I feel sorry for the poor who, as always, are the hardest hit but a revolution? Not even close.

C

PS. Of course I could be wrong and I may be about to be lynched by a starving mob eager to seize my apple harvest. If I don't blog for a while you'll know what has happened!

TheDLOG said...

Eh, the world is not at war, oh yeah, the Chinese and the N. Koreans haven't joined in yet, why can't you see it, the war is escalting at an incredible rate. But yeah, don't bother you does it cause you ain't on the frontline. I could see you being a Major or better, "don't worry lad youve got an SA80 with some ammo, just go to the front line and shoot like hell, I'll be OK I 'm here in the camp. Not that I have anything against those officers you understand, it is not there fault, it is once again the greedy Governments fault, I'm alright jack I am sittng sweet at number 10.
And no, you won't be attacked C, you probably have high security around your estate with loads of body guards, all tooled with M16's.
Have you no compasion for those that are not in your bubble?

DLOG

TheDLOG said...

Cor blimey Rachel, bet your glad you never went to the same school as C, you would have ended up like him, assuming of course you are a him C. Or did you just land in Essex!!

DLOG

Stephen said...

C/Paul/Anonymous,

Personally i think you are a false bastard. You sound more like one of those middle class types who think they are rich, but truth is they are leveraged way beyond their assets.

You don't sound like the real deal to me. Or you are just a wind up merchant.

TheDLOG said...

Nah Stevo, da is from essex, da is essex boys, no what i mean like,

Sorry Rachel thats not a piss take of you of course.

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Although I have not served in the Army a number of my family have and I can assure you officers are up there at the front with the rest of the men.

The world is not at war. There are some 6-7Bn people in this world. How many are living in a conflict zone? Probably fewer than at any time in human history.

DLOG I fear you are the one in the bubble. If you want to know what social unrest, real poverty and war are like go to the aforementioned Somalia. Here you will find bartering in full swing; the exchange of violence for whatever the weak have.


C

Anonymous said...

Stephen

'A false bastard.' You're hardly vibrating with positivity there I think.

Middle class? Yes (who isn't these days), Rich? (depends on your measure, see last post by which I would suggest we all are here), Leveraged? Thankfully no debt at all, well at least no monetary one.

Wind up merchant? Not intentionally but inadvertently perhaps.

C

PS. I cannot speak for Paul or the others.

TheDLOG said...

C, there are approx' 23 wars happening on every continent, plus other conflicts in such places as eg Sri Lanka. The thing is more will happen as financial markets break down further and with the atagonising others countries, ie Russia.
But hey, you have no need to worry as you can hide in copse on your estate.
And further more I have some friends/acquitances also who have been in Officers in the army, and known many freedom fighters, so there hmm

TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

Oh and by the way C, I deffinately do not live in a bubble, that is gauranteed, and maybe my english is shite, but I have learn't alot from REAL people with sincere hearts, and learn't from the witches and bastards of the world, and they far out number the sincere people.

DLOG

Anonymous said...

DLOG I'm sorry if I have upset or offended you.

C

TheDLOG said...

C, why should you have upset or offended me?

DLOG

Anonymous said...

Just thought I had so if I did I'm sorry. I may not agree with your world view but you have my utmost respect for voicing it.

C

Anonymous said...

What is this power you hold over people DLOG, Rachel thinks your charming after 2 lunch's Stephen appears to like you and thinks Rachel does, you slag off C and he respects you I am baffled by this power you have. Who are you really?


N

hani said...

A caring compassionate person who speaks from the heart. someone who wants to make a difference in the world.

Anonymous said...

Stephen,

'False bastard'??

That's really a well made, cogently argued point there Stephen.

For one who preaches 'unconditional love' you're hardly practising it are you?

To quote you further:

'I really resent it when people presume so much about other people.

'It smacks of arrogance. The type that no doubt has to served to weaken the integrity of the worlds financial markets.'

and then the following from you:

'Personally i think you are a false bastard. You sound more like one of those middle class types who think they are rich, but truth is they are leveraged way beyond their assets.'


For a man who writes words such as the above to then presume anything about me smacks of hypocrisy.

I signed off yesterday in what I thought was a pleasant way and respecting your opinion - nice response there fella.

Paul.

Stephen said...

Its ok Paul, i'm bloody sick of frivolous, pass-the-buck conversation.

I'm sick of people trying to push the responsibility for the worlds financial situation on the poorer people of the world and the banks and institutions effectively holding the people to ransom.

Sure the reality is that this is the way the cookie crumbles. The financial system wants bail-out or no doubt it will pull the plug even faster than we could think.

And guess who gets it again when this happens. The poorer people.

There is little or no accountability from the people who have the power.

You say that people should think before they invest in a mortgage, but what you don't understand is that for many people this means starting a home. It is not an investment as you or I might think.

But now many of these people stand to lose their homes. They will lose everything whilst city bankers and the FSA will no doubt go back to their cosy lifestyles - safe in the knowledge that they will have a home to go to.

I am effectively talking to many people called anonymous on this blog and have no idea why they would want to be so.

So since you are anonymous, i stand by view that all anonymous people (at least in the context of Rachel's blog) are false bastards and that the ones who rein against the hard working citizens of our world - EVEN MORE SO!

Anonymous said...

Stephen

I don't think anyone one of us has suggested that the poor are to blame. What I have said is that we all share the blame to some extent for society's ills and that people have to take personal responsibility for the decisions they make in their lives. It is surely demeaning to those less fortunate than yourself to suggest that the poor are not capable of such responsibility.

As for being anonymous, we are no different to you. We know nothing about you either. Ultimately this blog is a trade in views and ideas. The source does not diminish the value of that exchange.

As for DLOG, I agree with Hani. I may not agree with DLOG all the time but he has honest compassion in his posts.

C

Stephen said...

I don't think you heard what i was saying anonymous....

I am personally outraged by the corruption, incompetence and complicity of a few at the top of our financial systems.

Anyone who is not outraged is complicit or deluded as far as i am concerned.

I live in the real world, amongst real people who work hard for a living, but have very limited control over their lives.

If you think these people can take responsibility for their actions, then you are right, but this responsibility does not stretch to financial fraud.

You may be different C, but there have been a lot of anonymous trolls on this blog who have come here to rubbish Rachel and all she has done and stands for.

I think this is extremely cowardly of them, because i bet they wouldn't say it to her face.

Anonymous said...

Stephen, you don't sound to me like you are pro Rachel. On one hand you speak about how the dragon was right to do what she did at RLD and on the other hand you are pro the ordinary man in the street. A lot of people see Rachel as the epitome of capitalist arrogance. I don't see how you can take the position you have been against capitalist and still be pro Rachel.

TheDLOG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TheDLOG said...

A few observations, but hey, I maybe totally wrong, but here goes.

If Rachel is the Arrogant Capitalist that you speak of, then surely she would have just let RLD collapse, taken what ever she could from and sod the staff and anyone else involved, but I beleive she did not do that, she found 2 people to buy the company out of administration thereby protecting the jobs of many. It is very difficult though to keep all the people happy all of the time, what ever she would have done would have been wrong in the eyes of the outsiders.
So does one attempt to protect the majority, there by ensuring more jobs by dividing up the available work, or protect the minority, there by increasing the wealth of the leaders to the detriment of the majority. As Rachel rightly pointed out to me this morning "There are two sides to every story for every winner a loser etc etc", but no one, I am sure, wants to see anyone lose out, but how do you apportion it fairly so everyone wins?

PS, hope I did not offend you Rachel by my comment yesterday? If I did then please accept this appology, it is as public as I can get.

SORRY

DLOG

Stephen said...

I have nothing against people who work hard and take risks to become wealthy (i was one of them), but i do resent people getting wealthy at the expense of others.

Some people would say.... well you should be more realistic. I say to them... go back to school because if you cannot play the game straight, well then you shouldn't be in the game. No one is against healthy competition, but this has gone beyond the ethically boundaries set out by generations before us.

So there is no contradiction in my position. Both Rachel and the citizens of this country were cheated by the banks, by the hooray traders and dare i say the pathetic financial regulators.

Anonymous said...

Stephen

"Anyone who is not outraged is complicit or deluded as far as i am concerned."

So you're suggesting that unless people are outraged they are part of the problem or not as enlightened as you.

I am sorry to say this but I find that an unbelievably arrogant statement.

C

Stephen said...

Yes, that's right. If they are not outraged by the blackmail of the markets, then they are complicit, apathetic, stupid or whatever.

Sometimes in life C, people know better than other people and that's just the way it is.

I respect everyone, but when the mob stand idly by watching a man jump to his death - i say - stuff their opinion!!!

Call it arrogance if you like, but i know what i see because i have worked amongst it.

So yes, i do know better.

Mr A Dragon said...

This Blog and particularly these comments make me feel sick.

Stephen and DLOg, get a life and stop trying to hide in Mrs Elnaughs shadow, albiet a dubious one.

You spout nonsense about apocolypse and helping your fellow man. Maybe if you spent less time on here you might actually walk the walk.

DLOG - Business in trouble - get off your a@se and do something about it and stop sponging off your friend.

How can you criticize C for buying a business and getting a good price - that IS business!

Racheal - how dare you criticize a poster, arent yoy making a living off busienss owners in trouble? Who's the real vulture?

Stephen said...

Look Dragon man/woman, I'm not saying you can't make money in this climate, because for many - this is going to be the big time.

If the financial elite can screw the system, you can be pretty sure that many will follow in their footsteps. The rules have changed.

I already walked the walk and now i'm talking the talk.

It just sickens me listening to people trying to justify fraud or push the responsibility onto honest citizens - when we all know what it smells like and where it comes from.

So sod off Dragon.

And i like standing in Rachel's shadow... She is the only one out of all the dragons that built an innovative market from the ground up. All the others, just played the same boring game to make their money. Phones,Staplers, Recruitment and Gyms...phawwww

TheDLOG said...

Mr A Dragon, you have bloody cheek, do you know me? no you don't, I do not need to stand in anyone's shadow or sponge off anybody, if Rachel thinks I am then I am sure she is big enough to tell me herself, don't you, or if anyone thinks I am sponging off them then tell me so.
I am off my arse looking for business, it is probably arseholes like you that have ruined the industry and world economy anyway.
And further I do a lot of things to help others, for FREE, so get all yours facts together first then you maybe entitled to slag me off

TheDLOG

TheDLOG said...

And another thing Mr A Dragon, if C takes offence I am sure he can tell me hinself, he actually said and I quote "As for DLOG, I agree with Hani. I may not agree with DLOG all the time but he has honest compassion in his posts." So I suggest you read all of the blog first and then make your comments.
And another thing if as you say "This Blog and particularly these comments make me feel sick." Then why the hell are you posting on it?


TheDLOG

Anonymous said...

Stephen

I think we need to be careful with terms such as fraud. There is no suggestion that the current economic difficulties have been caused by anything illegal. Ill judged yes, illegal probably not.

As for your view that you know best, that of course may be true.

Personally, I am forever humbled not only my own fallibility but also by the depth of wisdom in others. I wish I had your clarity of view. I find mine often clouded by doubt.

C

Stephen said...

I call it fraud because it is fraud C. Illegal or not. It is still ethically and morally - FRAUD.

Those who have siphoned the money must surely put it back and be held accountable for their actions.

This was not all some dreadful mistake. The custodians of the system must make recompense in order for the financial systems to ever be trusted again.

Lest they create total anarchy in our world.

Anonymous said...

Stephen

Are we not the ultimately the custodians of the system in a democracy? After all, we elect the officials who legislate for the market. If the market is poorly regulated perhaps we chose those officials unwisely?

C

Stephen said...

Technically you are right C.

But in reality the people who get into power are rarely ever representative of anything more than a small percentage of the population.

So whilst 30+% can be said to be complicit, the majority of the population didn't get there man or woman. And this they have to live with until they get a chance again - to vote and (not get their man or woman again).

No, both power and wealth are not distributed fairly enough to ever hold the people complicit in anything more than the basic decisions of life.

I do however agree that the higher up the food chain you go, the higher your vote counts.

If those in power want to treat the people like sheep, then they shouldn't be surprised when those people behave like sheep.

You cannot blame the sheep if the sheepdog doesn't do its job.

Anonymous said...

"I do however agree that the higher up the food chain you go, the higher your vote counts."

I'm not sure that's what I said as I cannot see how one vote is any different to another.

It is sad that the majority of people in this country don't exercise their democratic right. However, that doesn't mean that they cannot influence things if they so chose. In my view the majority of people are simply getting on with their lives and only get involved in political debate when politics intrudes in their life.

The fact they have the option to take part but chose not to does not excuse them from the responsibility for the resulting government and consequent legislation. Hence my argument that we all share some responsibility, explicit or implicit for society's problems.

I'm not saying that an active electorate would have prevented the events from occurring but what I am saying is that inactivity is no excuse.

C

Stephen said...

Yes, it is like saying that the people that built the house were actually complicit in burning it to the ground.

Your evasive tactics will not cover up for the fact that serious fraud has been perpetrated on the world markets and today we see this fraud being endorsed by the very people who we are supposed to have been elected to serve us.

In short, they have given in to blackmail and in so doing altered the dynamic of ethical behavior across the international financial spectrum.

The financial marketeers now know that on mass, they wield even greater power to satisfy their incompetence and greed.

Recent events have served to be a good test for them, but contrary to spin and bluff, will not serve to improve the levels of accountability and proper conduct in the markets.

No your argument would probably satisfy some high school kids in a GCSE social responsibility class, but the reality is that the people of the world have been duped.

And now they are about to pay for it, again and again over the next few years.

Oct 3rd 2008 was the darkest day that i can ever remember.

Ed said...

So what's going to happen next then do you think Stephen. Rachel E, seems to agree with you to a point, but she seems to be more optimistic than you. I guess it could go one of two ways, good or bad. Then i guess the question would be, who will get the good and who will get the bad.

Anonymous said...

Stephen

Let's hope you live long enough to see darker days than this.

C

Stephen said...

Don't worry about me C. I am used to not living long enough.

Just don't like to see people pulling the wool over other peoples eyes, that all.

It is an extremely obvious and stupid game.

Rachel Elnaugh said...

3 October 2008 was actually a very good day for me and I will reveal the reason why shortly...

But I agree, the markets should not have been bailed out. However this has just delayed the meltdown and when it comes it will be even bigger - all this will come home to roost eventually. The US is now $6.7 trillion in debt.

I say let the markets crash, wipe everyone's debts and lose the jobs! The people were only working to pay the mortgage anyway!!!

Re-base the system in one fell swoop and create a more level playing field for everyone - including the billions on this planet who live on less than $1 dollar a day - the ones we claim not to be able to help as it's 'not economically viable'.

Vive la Revolution!

Anonymous said...

Rachel you are mischievous.

Here you go, a bit of wisdom from the past:

"The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this imposter; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody." Rousseau.

C

TheDLOG said...

I like this bit "wipe everyone's debts", sounds good to me, and C, absolutely, until the hooray henry's took over the land people where able to hunt freely for their food, now, in order to do this today one has to pay in excess of approx £300 per year to reap the food that belongs to everyone, so yes, lets go back to the good old days were we can hunt and forage freely for what God gave to us, for free. Bin technology, stop exploiting the earth, mind you nothing much left now to exploit from the earth thats why NASA are snooping on Mars, where will it all stop!!

Sorry Rchel I know you are a veggie, but hey come on hunting is how we used to survive, and there was NO wastage what was killed was eaten and only enough killed for survival.

DLOG

Stephen said...

Vive la Revolution!

Rachel Elnaugh said...

Quite. The Earth belongs to all who live on it.

The current greed and power struggles remind me of my two children (aged 3 and 5) sitting in the restaurant in our 5* hotel in Portugal for breakfast, surrounded by a sumptuous buffet of unlimited delicious food, arguing over the last pain au chocolat sitting on the plate in front of them.

We live in a world of absolute abundance where there is enough for everyone's need - but not for everyone's greed. People hoard through fear.

"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains."


Rachel

PS Still don't think it is necessary to kill any animals either.

Anonymous said...

Rousseau did have a habit of good quotes. Sadly, his philosophy arguably led to the concept of totalitarianism which gave us Stalin and Hitler. Just goes to show how a good idea can get abused!

C

PS. Agree with you on the animal front. I don't need to eat them but I choose to do so.

TheDLOG said...

Yeah, BORN FREE TAXED TO DEATH!!!!

DLOG

TheDLOG said...

Sorry to go off on a tangent, again, but there is a difference between hunting and slaughtering. What is sold in the supermarket and majority of butchers is slaughtered, how disgusting, but hunting is killing for personal survival and only what is needed, apart of course from the hooray henry's who breed thousands of pheasants each year and then take pleasure in slaughtering them. And yes, believe it or not Rachel and C, I am totally against slaughtering.
It is a big money spinner for the greedy few.

DLOG

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure the animals concerned would really see the difference to be honest.

C

TheDLOG said...

Ok, let me be a bit more specific, chickens, for an example, they are couped up in sheds with no room to move, then when they are big enough they collected up, strung up and electrocuted, but sadly they do not always die first time round. Now wild prey, pigeons, rabbits etc, are normally shot, and killed instantly, the majority of the time, hence the use of gun dog, within seconds the dog will locate and despatch the prey immediately.
They are wild and not bred for sport or couped up in sheds, unlike the chickens or pheasants, which I hasten to add are not wild as they are not native to this country, yes some are not shot and begin to live as a wild bird and lay eggs in the wild. But have you ever thought about this one, don't you often see pheasants walking about and don't you say, "oh, look at that pheasant isn't he nice", if you did not have the hunter you would not see the pheasant strutting majestically.
But must say I do not like the way they are reared in their thousands by the well-to-do and then shot in their hundreds over a few weeks by the these people, who I hasten to add probably spend thousands of pounds for the so called privelage. Further more how many of those chickens are actually bought and eaten, I think you will find many are thrown away! I hope you can see where I am coming from?
And believe it or not I do love animals, I have always had a dog, I do not like zoos, those animals should not be in zoos, it is not natural, they need wide open spaces to roam, and hunt naturally.

DLOG

Stephen said...

:D

Do you know that Nut Cases are running the world now

But.. Do you know what guys - i actually don't give a damn.

I don't care that i have awoken to the fact thatNut Cases are running the world now

It wasn't as if i didn't know that before
Its just that as time goes by

YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK HARD TO WORK IT OUT

Worse still is that the NUT CASES don't care if you know anymore

They actually don't care that you know they are NUT CASES

Have things got so bad that INSANITY has become the norm?
That INSANITY is now the rational?
And those who might be slightly SANE - are the abnormal

Well like i said at the beginning

I ACTUALLY DON'T CARE ANYMORE

F*ckin idiots - the whole lot of them..

:D:D

Stephen said...

Vive la Revolution!

I think this track by Jarvis explains it all.

http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=Her2M_zZDEI